Future Christian

Martha & Loren Talk Christian Leadership Across the US-Canada border

In this episode of the Future Christian podcast, hosts Martha and Loren engage in a personal check-in, discussing Loren's vocational transitions and the challenges of navigating ministry outside traditional roles. They then delve into the current state of Canada-US relations, exploring the emotional and economic implications of a perceived trade war. The conversation highlights the cultural identity of Canadians and the growing sense of national pride amidst external pressures, emphasizing the importance of recognizing diverse forms of ministry and leadership in a changing landscape. In this conversation, Martha and Loren explore the role of progressive Christianity in addressing contemporary political issues, the importance of empathy and mercy in sermons, and the challenges of navigating political sensitivities within congregations. They discuss the significance of music in fostering community and healing, the need for courage in leadership, and the importance of finding common ground across political divides. The conversation concludes with personal reflections on coping strategies and a shared prayer for unity and guidance.

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

The Church as a Healing Community with Susan Ward Diamond

What does it mean to be the church in anxious, divided times? Recorded in connection with the 2025 Remind & Renew Conference at Phillips Seminary, Loren Richmond Jr. sits down with Rev. Dr. Susan Diamond to explore how local congregations can become spaces of healing, clarity, and radical welcome. Drawing from her work with moral injury, healing circles, and the Soul Repair After Moral Injury podcast (co-hosted with Dr. Rita Nakashima Brock), Susan shares how churches can recover the spiritual practices that root us in love, courage, and compassion. From forming faith through daily practices to fostering political and theological diversity under a shared mission, she offers a powerful testimony of what it means to be the church for this moment.

In this episode, you'll hear:

• What moral injury is and how it shows up in church, healthcare, and society

• How healing circles are transforming congregations from the inside out

• Why forming faith is essential before welcoming or serving others

• How to foster unity across political differences through mission clarity

• The role of spiritual direction and communal lament in healing

• A hopeful vision for the future of Christianity and leadership

Rev. Dr. Susan Ward Diamond is the Lead Pastor of Florence Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Florence, Kentucky, where she has served since 2015.  Susan received her Bachelor of Arts degree from Texas Christian University, a Master of Divinity degree from Brite Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry degree from United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio. Dr. Diamond has invested herself in ministry and mission through local, regional and general expressions of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in the United States and Canada, throughout her 33 years of ordained ministry.  She has served on the regional boards of the Florida and Alabama-Northwest Florida regions, directed numerous youth camps and conferences, and served as a keynote speaker of retreats and assemblies around the country.  She has served her denomination as First Vice Moderator for the 2011-2013 biennium of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in the United States and Canada. During her sabbatical in 2021, Dr. Diamond and Dr. Rita Nakashima Brock collaborated on a pastoral study grant funded by the Louisville Institute entitled Moral Injury: A Catalyst for Reform.  Following the study period, they have continued their work together to offer strategies to faith communities for providing support and healing for those suffering from moral distress and moral injury.  They have recently launched the podcast Soul Repair: After Moral Injury.  Susan and Rita are currently writing a book which they hope to publish soon.

Mentioned Resources:

🎙️ Rita Nakashima Brock's episode on Future Christian: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-vjamb-1871d36
🎙️ Soul Repair After Moral Injury Podcast (on all major platforms)
🌐 Florence Christian Church: florencechristian.org
📚 Coming Soon: A book on moral injury in the church (by Susan Diamond & Rita Nakashima Brock)

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Rita Nakashima Brock and the Role of Church in Troubled Times

What if the church was never meant to be a waiting room for heaven—but a community that builds paradise now? Recorded live at Phillips Seminary during the 2025 Remind & Renew Conference, Loren Richmond Jr. sits down with Dr. Rita Nakashima Brock to reflect on the decline of religious institutions, the collapse of reliable media, and how early Christian communities cultivated paradise on earth—not just in theory, but through shared meals, practices, and mutual care. Drawing on her groundbreaking book Saving Paradise, Brock calls for a return to rituals that ground us in community, memory, and moral accountability.

In this episode, you'll hear about:

• The origins and impact of moral injury in war and church settings

• Why wisdom cannot grow in isolation—and how loneliness undermines it

• The role of ritual in forming resilient, embodied communities of faith

• Early Christianity’s focus on paradise in the here and now

• What Protestantism lost when it rejected communal, repetitive ritual

• A powerful critique of institutional silence, spiritual abuse, and the theology of “waiting for heaven”

• How the Eucharist once fed thousands—and why we need that vision again

 

Rita Nakashima Brock, Ph.D., has been Senior Vice President for Moral Injury Recovery Programs at Volunteers of America since 2017. An award-winning author, she is co-author of Saving Paradise: How Christianity Traded Love of This World for Crucifixion and Empire (2008). She held the Endowed Chair in the Humanities at Hamline University 1990-1997, then became Director of the Fellowship Program at the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study at Harvard University. From 2001-2002 she was a fellow at the Center for Values in Public Life at Harvard Divinity School. She co-founded the Soul Repair Center at Brite Divinity School in 2012 and directed it until 2017.

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Bivocational Ministry: Rethinking Church Leadership with Kris Bentley

What if bivocational ministry isn’t a compromise—but a key to the church’s future? Kris Bentley joins Loren Richmond Jr. to explore the evolving landscape of bivocational ministry in today’s church. Drawing on insights from her book Bivocational Ministry: Field Notes for Congregations and Ministers, Kris shares stories from over a decade of research and interviews with pastors and churches engaged in bivocational models. They unpack misconceptions around part-time and bivocational leadership, the surprising benefits of realigned congregational relationships, and how small churches can thrive with the resources they already have. Kris also offers thoughtful guidance for pastors navigating dual roles, denominations rethinking support structures, and seminaries designing education for a changing ministry future.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why bivocational ministry is more than a financial necessity—and may be the future of pastoral leadership
• How redefining expectations can empower lay leaders and revitalize small congregations
• The difference between part-time, bivocational, and multivocational ministry models
• Practical tools for pastors and churches navigating role clarity and boundary-setting
• How seminaries and denominations can better support pastors in flexible ministry pathways

 

Rev. Dr. Kristen Bentley is an ordained minister with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). She has served in congregational ministry in the central Kentucky area for more than twenty years, sometimes in the role of a bivocational pastor. Prior to attending seminary, she worked in higher education administration, serving at both Midway College (now Midway University) and the University of Kentucky. Since 2014 Kris has been working at Lexington Theological Seminary (LTS), beginning when LTS was awarded a grant by Lilly Endowment Inc. as part of its Economic Challenges Facing Future Ministers (ECFFM). She was hired to direct the grant project and as part of that work, Kris initiated research at LTS regarding bivocational ministry. The research concerning bivocational ministry has been supported at LTS through grants from Lilly Endowment Inc., including both Lilly’s ECFFM Initiative and later the Thriving in Ministry Initiative. Currently, Kris also is serving as an interim minister of a Disciples of Christ congregation in Kentucky. Kris is an alum of Lexington Theological Seminary, holding a D. Min. (2020) and M.Div. degree (1997) from LTS, as well as a M.S. in Education (1981) from Indiana University, and a B.A. (1979) from the University of Kentucky.  Kris and her husband, Perry, live in the Lexington area.  They have four adult children and three grandchildren.

 

Relevant Links:

Lexington Theological Seminary: https://lextheo.edu/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kristen.p.bentley

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristen-bentley-20a60b65/

Chalice Press: https://chalicepress.com/products/bivocational-ministry-field-notes-for-congregations-and-ministers?_pos=2&_sid=0718b64df&_ss=r

 

Eric Hoke: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-wbbf2-1412bed

Jeffrey MacDonald: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-vu5iw-126b98d

 

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Kyle Norman on Finding God when Faith Feels Hard

In this powerful and deeply personal conversation, Martha Tatarnic talks with Kyle Norman about his latest book, Alive, Loved, and Free, which explores what it means to hold on to faith in the face of spiritual discouragement, suffering, and doubt. Drawing from his own experience as a priest and caregiver during his wife’s cancer treatment, Kyle shares how this painful journey reshaped his understanding of ministry, prayer, and God’s presence. Together, they discuss Kyle’s journey in ministry and his role as Dean in the Anglican Church of Canada, the power of the Daily Office and morning prayer, and the spiritual pitfalls many Christians face—feelings of unworthiness, struggling to pray, and wrestling with belief. The conversation explores the silence of God in suffering and the presence that often meets us instead, how church leaders can model honest vulnerability, and why doubt is not a disqualifier for faith. Kyle offers practical insights on forgiveness, feeling God’s love, and navigating big spiritual questions, while also sharing his hopes for the future of vibrant, small, and grace-filled Christian communities.

Reverend Kyle Norman is a priest, author, and speaker.  Kyle holds Bachelor’s degree in Philosophy, a Masters in Divinity, and a Doctorate in Spiritual Formation. He currently live in Kamloops British Columbia with his wife and son. Currently, Kyle is the Rector of St. Paul’s Cathedral and Dean of the Territory of the People. Kyle is also the Author of “Alive, Loved, & Free: Finding Jesus when Faith is Hard” which tackles the tricky issue of feeling discouraged in our faith.

 

Relevant Links

Website: www.revkylenorman.ca

Facebook: facebook.com/ReverendKyleNorman

Instagram @reverend.kyle.norman

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Church Decline, Evangelism, and Renewal: A Conversation with Ben Crosby

In this episode, Martha Tatarnic talks with Rev. Ben Crosby to explore the state of the mainline church, the challenges of evangelism, and the role of discipleship in church renewal. Ben shares his reflections on church growth, social justice, and spiritual formation. Their conversation delves into the decline of the Anglican Church of Canada, the significance of church attendance numbers for evangelism, and the tension between progressive theology and traditional discipleship. They also discuss overcoming the reluctance to talk about evangelism in mainline circles, the transformative role of the Daily Office in spiritual life, and practical steps for revitalizing church communities. Finally, Ben reflects on what he would prioritize if he were leading a mainline denomination, offering thoughtful perspectives on the church’s future in an era of significant change.

The Rev. Ben Crosby is a priest of the Episcopal Church (USA) currently serving in the Anglican Church of Canada. He is also a PhD student in ecclesiastical history at McGill University, where he studies the English Reformation. Ben is passionate about church renewal in the contemporary mainline, Christian discipleship and spirituality, and what the Christian past (especially the sixteenth century) might have to say about Christian life today. He has been published in Plough, The Anglican Way, Earth & Altar, The Hour, and Faith+Lead. You can read more at bencrosby.substack.com. 

 

Relevant Links

Mike Cosper episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-2m9ra-176f33e

Andrew Root episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-jtzdu-1500e5e

Lyons on Try Tank Podcast: https://share.transistor.fm/s/2983acab

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Tricia Lyons on Why Churches Should Be More Exclusive

Do churches need to be more exclusive? For years, both Evangelical and Progressive churches have lowered expectations to get people in the door. In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Dr. Tricia Lyons, a leader in evangelism at Virginia Theological Seminary, about why churches should raise the bar to reclaim a compelling, transformative vision for sharing the gospel. Dr. Lyons challenges seeker-sensitive and all-are-welcome models, questioning whether they truly form disciples. Instead, she advocates for a high-bar Christianity—one that calls people into deep commitment rather than passive inclusion. The conversation explores church decline, the limits of hospitality, the power of formation, and why high expectations create stronger faith communities.

Dr. Lyons currently teaches evangelism, works with the Lifelong Learning team, and serves as the Senior Advisor to the Dean for Evangelism Initiatives at VTS. She also directs the EvangelismFormationLab@VTS, a digital portal on YouTube and Facebook offering original content from the Seminary as well as thoughtful curation of resources in evangelism and formation for the wider church. Dr. Lyons was a lay chaplain and teacher of religion in Episcopal schools for 20 years before being ordained a priest and then serving parishes in Washington, DC, eventually serving as Canon for Evangelism in the Episcopal Diocese of Washington. Currently, Tricia serves as a non-stipendiary priest at the Church of Saint Clement in Alexandria, VA.

Tricia is a member of the Presiding Bishop’s Strategic Cabinet on Evangelism and one of the original writers of the “Way of Love.” Tricia is an honors graduate from Harvard College, the Harvard Divinity School, and received her doctorate from the Virginia Theological Seminary. She is the author of four books on faith formation, The Soul of Adolescence, Teaching Faith with Harry Potter, What is Evangelism? and her most recent, The Evangelist’s Breviary.

 

Relevant Links

 Mike Cosper episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-2m9ra-176f33e

Andrew Root episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-jtzdu-1500e5e

Lyons on Try Tank Podcast: https://share.transistor.fm/s/2983acab

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

 

What is the Church? And What is it for? Exploring Ecclesiology with David Emerton

What is the church, and what is it for? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Rev. Dr. David Emerton to explore the purpose of the church, how different theological traditions define its role, and why these definitions matter for shaping the church’s future. David shares insights on why many churches are caught in cycles of inertia or panic in response to decline, how our implicit assumptions about the church shape ministry practices, and why understanding ecclesiology is essential for church leaders today. The conversation also touches on theological education, the role of tradition, and how the church can remain faithful in a changing world.

David Emerton (PhD, University of Aberdeen) is director of St. Mellitus College, East Midlands, United Kingdom. He previously served as principal of the School of Discipleship in the Diocese of Southwell and Nottingham and as a teaching fellow in systematic and historical theology at the University of Aberdeen. David is ordained as priest in the Church of England and prior to his training for ordination he worked in the City of London as a solicitor. He is the author of God’s Church Community: The Ecclesiology of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Types of Ecclesiology: Five Theological Approaches.

 

Relevant Links & Episodes

https://stmellitus.ac.uk 

https://stmellitus.ac.uk/staff/david-emerton. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-emerton-950444159

Justin Anthony - https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-cjrug-1541ed0

Alison Milbank - https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-ggj6t-166b3b9

Natalie Wigg-Stevenson - https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-4e8jr-ef1bbc

 

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Stepping into Kingdom Justice with Michelle Ferrigno Warren

What does it mean to move beyond awareness and into action? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. sits down with Michelle Ferrigno Warren, author, activist, and faith-rooted organizer, to discuss what it takes to engage in meaningful justice work. Michelle shares her journey from growing up in a fundamentalist Christian environment to becoming a public theologian and advocate for community development and justice. She discusses the importance of proximity in transforming perspectives, why churches often struggle with moving from mercy to justice, and how pastors can engage in advocacy while navigating political and institutional pressures. The conversation also delves into the intersection of faith and immigration, the role of public discipleship in shaping Christian witness, and the challenges of engaging a younger generation disillusioned with the church’s response to injustice.

Michelle Ferrigno Warren is the President of Virago Strategies, a consulting group which provides strategic engagement and project management support for churches and non-profits stepping more deeply into the work of public justice. She has been working in Christian community development for over 30 years utilizing her skills as an educator, worship leader, non-profit manager, public policy specialist & faith-rooted organizer & activist. She is an adjunct professor at Denver Seminary and a Senior Fellow with The Dietrich Bonhoeffer Institute. She is a fierce advocate for justice and has shared much of her journey toward civic engagement and activism in her books, The Power of Proximity, Moving Beyond Awareness to Action, IVP 2017 and Join the Resistance, Step Into the Good Work of Kingdom Justice IVP, 2022.

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Redefining Leadership: Andrew Draper on Disability, Inclusion, and the Power of Community

What does it mean to lead in weakness rather than strength? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Rev. Dr. Andrew Draper, co-author of Disabling Leadership: A Practical Theology for the Broken Body of Christ. Together, they explore how the church can redefine leadership away from power, charisma, and productivity toward humility, inclusion, and community-driven authority. Andrew shares insights from his work in disability theology, church leadership, and reconciliation, discussing how leadership must embrace human limitation and interdependence rather than seeking control or dominance. They also dive into the challenges of deconstruction and critical theory, why Christian nationalism and secular humanism are both flawed responses to uncertainty, and how churches can better align their practices with their values of inclusion.

Rev. Dr. Andrew T. Draper is the Executive Director of Winebrenner Theological Seminary in Findlay, OH. He is also teaching pastor at Urban Light Community Church in Muncie, IN. He has authored numerous books and articles on race, disability, and the church. Dr. Draper holds a PhD in theological ethics from the University of Aberdeen and an MDiv from Winebrenner Theological Seminary.

 

Relevant Links:

www.AndrewTDraper.com

www.UrbanLightMuncie.com

www.facebook.com/AndrewThomasDraper 

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant