Future Christian

Bivocational Ministry: Rethinking Church Leadership with Kris Bentley

What if bivocational ministry isn’t a compromise—but a key to the church’s future? Kris Bentley joins Loren Richmond Jr. to explore the evolving landscape of bivocational ministry in today’s church. Drawing on insights from her book Bivocational Ministry: Field Notes for Congregations and Ministers, Kris shares stories from over a decade of research and interviews with pastors and churches engaged in bivocational models. They unpack misconceptions around part-time and bivocational leadership, the surprising benefits of realigned congregational relationships, and how small churches can thrive with the resources they already have. Kris also offers thoughtful guidance for pastors navigating dual roles, denominations rethinking support structures, and seminaries designing education for a changing ministry future.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why bivocational ministry is more than a financial necessity—and may be the future of pastoral leadership
• How redefining expectations can empower lay leaders and revitalize small congregations
• The difference between part-time, bivocational, and multivocational ministry models
• Practical tools for pastors and churches navigating role clarity and boundary-setting
• How seminaries and denominations can better support pastors in flexible ministry pathways

 

Rev. Dr. Kristen Bentley is an ordained minister with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). She has served in congregational ministry in the central Kentucky area for more than twenty years, sometimes in the role of a bivocational pastor. Prior to attending seminary, she worked in higher education administration, serving at both Midway College (now Midway University) and the University of Kentucky. Since 2014 Kris has been working at Lexington Theological Seminary (LTS), beginning when LTS was awarded a grant by Lilly Endowment Inc. as part of its Economic Challenges Facing Future Ministers (ECFFM). She was hired to direct the grant project and as part of that work, Kris initiated research at LTS regarding bivocational ministry. The research concerning bivocational ministry has been supported at LTS through grants from Lilly Endowment Inc., including both Lilly’s ECFFM Initiative and later the Thriving in Ministry Initiative. Currently, Kris also is serving as an interim minister of a Disciples of Christ congregation in Kentucky. Kris is an alum of Lexington Theological Seminary, holding a D. Min. (2020) and M.Div. degree (1997) from LTS, as well as a M.S. in Education (1981) from Indiana University, and a B.A. (1979) from the University of Kentucky.  Kris and her husband, Perry, live in the Lexington area.  They have four adult children and three grandchildren.

 

Relevant Links:

Lexington Theological Seminary: https://lextheo.edu/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kristen.p.bentley

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristen-bentley-20a60b65/

Chalice Press: https://chalicepress.com/products/bivocational-ministry-field-notes-for-congregations-and-ministers?_pos=2&_sid=0718b64df&_ss=r

 

Eric Hoke: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-wbbf2-1412bed

Jeffrey MacDonald: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-vu5iw-126b98d

 

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Kyle Norman on Finding God when Faith Feels Hard

In this powerful and deeply personal conversation, Martha Tatarnic talks with Kyle Norman about his latest book, Alive, Loved, and Free, which explores what it means to hold on to faith in the face of spiritual discouragement, suffering, and doubt. Drawing from his own experience as a priest and caregiver during his wife’s cancer treatment, Kyle shares how this painful journey reshaped his understanding of ministry, prayer, and God’s presence. Together, they discuss Kyle’s journey in ministry and his role as Dean in the Anglican Church of Canada, the power of the Daily Office and morning prayer, and the spiritual pitfalls many Christians face—feelings of unworthiness, struggling to pray, and wrestling with belief. The conversation explores the silence of God in suffering and the presence that often meets us instead, how church leaders can model honest vulnerability, and why doubt is not a disqualifier for faith. Kyle offers practical insights on forgiveness, feeling God’s love, and navigating big spiritual questions, while also sharing his hopes for the future of vibrant, small, and grace-filled Christian communities.

Reverend Kyle Norman is a priest, author, and speaker.  Kyle holds Bachelor’s degree in Philosophy, a Masters in Divinity, and a Doctorate in Spiritual Formation. He currently live in Kamloops British Columbia with his wife and son. Currently, Kyle is the Rector of St. Paul’s Cathedral and Dean of the Territory of the People. Kyle is also the Author of “Alive, Loved, & Free: Finding Jesus when Faith is Hard” which tackles the tricky issue of feeling discouraged in our faith.

 

Relevant Links

Website: www.revkylenorman.ca

Facebook: facebook.com/ReverendKyleNorman

Instagram @reverend.kyle.norman

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Church Decline, Evangelism, and Renewal: A Conversation with Ben Crosby

In this episode, Martha Tatarnic talks with Rev. Ben Crosby to explore the state of the mainline church, the challenges of evangelism, and the role of discipleship in church renewal. Ben shares his reflections on church growth, social justice, and spiritual formation. Their conversation delves into the decline of the Anglican Church of Canada, the significance of church attendance numbers for evangelism, and the tension between progressive theology and traditional discipleship. They also discuss overcoming the reluctance to talk about evangelism in mainline circles, the transformative role of the Daily Office in spiritual life, and practical steps for revitalizing church communities. Finally, Ben reflects on what he would prioritize if he were leading a mainline denomination, offering thoughtful perspectives on the church’s future in an era of significant change.

The Rev. Ben Crosby is a priest of the Episcopal Church (USA) currently serving in the Anglican Church of Canada. He is also a PhD student in ecclesiastical history at McGill University, where he studies the English Reformation. Ben is passionate about church renewal in the contemporary mainline, Christian discipleship and spirituality, and what the Christian past (especially the sixteenth century) might have to say about Christian life today. He has been published in Plough, The Anglican Way, Earth & Altar, The Hour, and Faith+Lead. You can read more at bencrosby.substack.com. 

 

Relevant Links

Mike Cosper episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-2m9ra-176f33e

Andrew Root episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-jtzdu-1500e5e

Lyons on Try Tank Podcast: https://share.transistor.fm/s/2983acab

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Tricia Lyons on Why Churches Should Be More Exclusive

Do churches need to be more exclusive? For years, both Evangelical and Progressive churches have lowered expectations to get people in the door. In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Dr. Tricia Lyons, a leader in evangelism at Virginia Theological Seminary, about why churches should raise the bar to reclaim a compelling, transformative vision for sharing the gospel. Dr. Lyons challenges seeker-sensitive and all-are-welcome models, questioning whether they truly form disciples. Instead, she advocates for a high-bar Christianity—one that calls people into deep commitment rather than passive inclusion. The conversation explores church decline, the limits of hospitality, the power of formation, and why high expectations create stronger faith communities.

Dr. Lyons currently teaches evangelism, works with the Lifelong Learning team, and serves as the Senior Advisor to the Dean for Evangelism Initiatives at VTS. She also directs the EvangelismFormationLab@VTS, a digital portal on YouTube and Facebook offering original content from the Seminary as well as thoughtful curation of resources in evangelism and formation for the wider church. Dr. Lyons was a lay chaplain and teacher of religion in Episcopal schools for 20 years before being ordained a priest and then serving parishes in Washington, DC, eventually serving as Canon for Evangelism in the Episcopal Diocese of Washington. Currently, Tricia serves as a non-stipendiary priest at the Church of Saint Clement in Alexandria, VA.

Tricia is a member of the Presiding Bishop’s Strategic Cabinet on Evangelism and one of the original writers of the “Way of Love.” Tricia is an honors graduate from Harvard College, the Harvard Divinity School, and received her doctorate from the Virginia Theological Seminary. She is the author of four books on faith formation, The Soul of Adolescence, Teaching Faith with Harry Potter, What is Evangelism? and her most recent, The Evangelist’s Breviary.

 

Relevant Links

 Mike Cosper episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-2m9ra-176f33e

Andrew Root episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-jtzdu-1500e5e

Lyons on Try Tank Podcast: https://share.transistor.fm/s/2983acab

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

 

What is the Church? And What is it for? Exploring Ecclesiology with David Emerton

What is the church, and what is it for? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Rev. Dr. David Emerton to explore the purpose of the church, how different theological traditions define its role, and why these definitions matter for shaping the church’s future. David shares insights on why many churches are caught in cycles of inertia or panic in response to decline, how our implicit assumptions about the church shape ministry practices, and why understanding ecclesiology is essential for church leaders today. The conversation also touches on theological education, the role of tradition, and how the church can remain faithful in a changing world.

David Emerton (PhD, University of Aberdeen) is director of St. Mellitus College, East Midlands, United Kingdom. He previously served as principal of the School of Discipleship in the Diocese of Southwell and Nottingham and as a teaching fellow in systematic and historical theology at the University of Aberdeen. David is ordained as priest in the Church of England and prior to his training for ordination he worked in the City of London as a solicitor. He is the author of God’s Church Community: The Ecclesiology of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Types of Ecclesiology: Five Theological Approaches.

 

Relevant Links & Episodes

https://stmellitus.ac.uk 

https://stmellitus.ac.uk/staff/david-emerton. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-emerton-950444159

Justin Anthony - https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-cjrug-1541ed0

Alison Milbank - https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-ggj6t-166b3b9

Natalie Wigg-Stevenson - https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-4e8jr-ef1bbc

 

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Stepping into Kingdom Justice with Michelle Ferrigno Warren

What does it mean to move beyond awareness and into action? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. sits down with Michelle Ferrigno Warren, author, activist, and faith-rooted organizer, to discuss what it takes to engage in meaningful justice work. Michelle shares her journey from growing up in a fundamentalist Christian environment to becoming a public theologian and advocate for community development and justice. She discusses the importance of proximity in transforming perspectives, why churches often struggle with moving from mercy to justice, and how pastors can engage in advocacy while navigating political and institutional pressures. The conversation also delves into the intersection of faith and immigration, the role of public discipleship in shaping Christian witness, and the challenges of engaging a younger generation disillusioned with the church’s response to injustice.

Michelle Ferrigno Warren is the President of Virago Strategies, a consulting group which provides strategic engagement and project management support for churches and non-profits stepping more deeply into the work of public justice. She has been working in Christian community development for over 30 years utilizing her skills as an educator, worship leader, non-profit manager, public policy specialist & faith-rooted organizer & activist. She is an adjunct professor at Denver Seminary and a Senior Fellow with The Dietrich Bonhoeffer Institute. She is a fierce advocate for justice and has shared much of her journey toward civic engagement and activism in her books, The Power of Proximity, Moving Beyond Awareness to Action, IVP 2017 and Join the Resistance, Step Into the Good Work of Kingdom Justice IVP, 2022.

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Redefining Leadership: Andrew Draper on Disability, Inclusion, and the Power of Community

What does it mean to lead in weakness rather than strength? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Rev. Dr. Andrew Draper, co-author of Disabling Leadership: A Practical Theology for the Broken Body of Christ. Together, they explore how the church can redefine leadership away from power, charisma, and productivity toward humility, inclusion, and community-driven authority. Andrew shares insights from his work in disability theology, church leadership, and reconciliation, discussing how leadership must embrace human limitation and interdependence rather than seeking control or dominance. They also dive into the challenges of deconstruction and critical theory, why Christian nationalism and secular humanism are both flawed responses to uncertainty, and how churches can better align their practices with their values of inclusion.

Rev. Dr. Andrew T. Draper is the Executive Director of Winebrenner Theological Seminary in Findlay, OH. He is also teaching pastor at Urban Light Community Church in Muncie, IN. He has authored numerous books and articles on race, disability, and the church. Dr. Draper holds a PhD in theological ethics from the University of Aberdeen and an MDiv from Winebrenner Theological Seminary.

 

Relevant Links:

www.AndrewTDraper.com

www.UrbanLightMuncie.com

www.facebook.com/AndrewThomasDraper 

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

 

Church for Everyone: Why the Future Church must be Multi-Ethnic, Multi-Generational, & Mission-Driven

How can churches truly become spaces for everyone? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Dan Kreiss and Ephraim Smith, co-authors of Church for Everyone: Building a Multi-Inclusive Community for Emerging Generations. Together, they explore how churches can move beyond silos of race, class, and ideology to truly reflect the diverse body of Christ. Dan and Ephraim discuss the shift from attractional mega-church models to localized, neighborhood-based faith communities, the growing need for multi-ethnic and multi-generational churches, and why the church should lead the way in reconciliation rather than follow secular models of inclusion. They also examine the tension between church as an institution vs. church as a gathered community and how leaders can navigate these complexities while engaging younger generations.

 

Dan Kreiss (DMin, George Fox University) is the associate minister for mission and community outreach at Roswell Presbyterian Church in the greater Atlanta area. He was previously professor of youth ministry and dean of the School of Missions at King University in Bristol, Tennessee.

Efrem Smith (DMin, Fuller Theological Seminary) is the colead pastor of Midtown Church, a thriving multiethnic community in Sacramento, California. His books include Raising Up Young Heroes and The Post-Black and Post-White Church. Learn more about Efrem and read his blog at influentalglobal.com. Follow him on X: @efremsmith.

 

Episodes Referenced:

Walter Strickland: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-zmhss-174b7a6

Brian Davis: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-jd4vj-172854c

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Dustin Benac on Adaptability, Authority, and Future Church

How can churches navigate change and uncertainty with creativity and resilience? In this episode,  Dustin Benac shares insights from his research in the Pacific Northwest, where faith communities are experimenting with new organizational models in response to the decline of traditional church structures. Together, they explore themes of collaboration, authority, and innovation, discussing how faith communities can remain rooted in tradition while adapting to a rapidly shifting landscape. Dustin introduces the concept of "hubs"—new forms of church organization that connect congregations, nonprofits, and faith leaders in dynamic networks. He also reflects on how authority is shifting from institutional hierarchy to relational trust and local leadership, offering a hopeful vision for the future of faith.

Dustin D. Benac, ThD, is an educator, practical theologian and organizational strategist. He teaches at Baylor University’s George W. Truett Theological Seminary as the Co-Founding Director for the Program for the Future Church. He has supported and studied communities of faith who are navigating transition and uncertainty across North America. Prior to his appointment at Baylor, Dustin was a Postdoctoral Associate with Kate Bowler and the Everything Happens Project at Duke University. Dustin is the author or editor of multiple books and articles. His latest book, Adaptive Church: Collaboration and Community in a Changing World, explores what it takes for communities of faith to navigate organizational change. He is the co-editor of Crisis and Care: Meditations on Faith and Philanthropy and the Editor of Practical Theology, an international and interdisciplinary journal. His writing has been published by Faith & Leadership, Christianity Today, The World Council of Churches, Ecclesial Futures.

An accomplished speaker, teacher, and fundraiser, he has worked with congregations and researchers across Canada, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and the United States. He is a graduate of Duke University, with Doctor of Theology (ThD) and Master of Divinity (MDiv) degrees, and Whitworth University. Dustin lives in Waco, TX with his wife, Casey, their three kids, and a lab, Lila. To join the conversation, go to dustindbenac.com or follow him on Twitter @dustindbenac.

 

Adaptive Church: https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481317085/adaptive-church/

Discount code is 17Fall24 for 20% off + free shipping

Program for the Future Church’s Impact Report: https://truettseminary.baylor.edu/sites/g/files/ecbvkj631/files/2025-01/PFFC%20Impact%20Report%20Final.pdf

 

X: https://x.com/dustindbenac?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dustindbenac/

Threads: https://www.threads.net/@dustindbenac

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dustin-benac-22069127/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dustin.benac/

Website: https://www.dustindbenac.com/

 

Episodes Referenced:

Ted Smith https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-w4nrb-15d747b

Scott Thumma https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-44b9y-154b15b

Justin Anthony: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-cjrug-1541ed0

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

Worship and the Body: David Taylor on Why Physicality Matters in Worship

How does the way we use our bodies shape our faith? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with W. David O. Taylor, Associate Professor of Theology and Culture at Fuller Theological Seminary and author of A Body of Praise: Understanding the Role of Our Physical Bodies in Worship. David shares insights into the importance of physicality in worship, the role of space and posture, and how these practices can deeply shape spiritual formation. David discusses the impact of the pandemic on worship practices, the theological implications of our physical expressions, and the ways worship spaces and rituals influence how we encounter God. Loren and David also explore cultural attitudes toward the body, masculinity, and how we are called to use our bodies as instruments of care, connection, and worship.

David O. Taylor is Associate Professor of Theology and Culture at Fuller Theological Seminary and the author of several books, including Prayers for the Pilgrimage (IVP, 2024), A Body of Praise (Baker Academic, 2023), Open and Unafraid (Thomas Nelson/HarperCollins, 2020), Glimpses of the New Creation (Eerdmans, 2019), and The Theater of God’s Glory(Eerdmans, 2017). In addition to a range of scholarly and popular essays, he has also edited several books, including The Art of New Creation(IVP Academic, 2022), Contemporary Art and the Church (IVP Academic, 2017), and For the Beauty of the Church: Casting a Vision for the Arts (Baker Books, 2010).  He serves on the advisory board for Duke Initiatives in Theology and the Arts as well as IVP Academic’s series, “Studies in Theology and the Arts.” An ordained priest, he has lectured widely on the arts, from Thailand to South Africa. In 2016 he produced a short film on the psalms with Bono and Eugene Peterson. He lives in Austin, Texas, with his children and artist wife, Phaedra, with whom he has produced three sets of illustrated prayer cards (here, here, and here). He can be found online on Twitter: @wdavidotaylor; IG: @davidtaylor_theologian; and his personal website, www.wdavidotaylor.com.

 

Episodes Referenced:

J. Michael Jordan: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/worship-in-an-age-of-anxiety-with-j-michael-jordan/

Andrew Root: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/rooted/

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

Supporting Sponsors:

Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant